The Art of Feedback

Are you, you're not doing good? Oh, you're acting Mike. This isn't acting. Okay. Please don't break the fourth wall.

Welcome to the marketing team in one podcast, where we have conversations about the issues one person marketing teams face when trying to meet their goals with limited time and budgets. Now here's your hosts, Eric and Mike. All right, I think we're joining a tense situation in progress here, Eric. What is going on?

I think I'll be all right, but um, it's been, it's been tough. I'll be honest. Okay. I don't usually cry even though I'm on the crying couch. The most, more stoic of the two, right? I usually much more, you know, much way less emotional, but, um, I just hate it when you go into a presentation, you're showing maybe a logo or something with a client and they just stare at you and are like, What is this?

Why? Why? Why did you do this? Why? This isn't what I asked for. So it's like, you're, you're going into this session with someone who's a stakeholder in this project, right? Yeah. And they're, they're just unable to provide any kind of feedback or any feedback they give you. is not helpful or can't help move things forward.

It comes across as being very accusatory and it sets up a situation where it's just, everybody feels like they're against each other. It's a very somewhat negative environment that is not really conducive for product productivity and getting anything accomplished. You know, it's, I don't know what I'm more sad about is them coming across as being mean, even though they probably don't even intend to be.

Right. They're just confused, maybe, and that's not their fault. They're just something got missed, or there was a detail that was skipped, or they put up way more emphasis on something in their own mind than you did when you initially had the kickoff meeting. Ultimately, a lot of these things come down to subjectivity in what's being created and what's being worked on, right?

Yeah. And so, It takes a lot. It's it's an art. There's an art to like trying to get the right feedback and to help move things forward. Right? I mean, that's, that's really a nuanced process for sure. And there's a lot of things that elevate that situation beyond just a business meeting or download of information or things like that.

And so it is, it's about nuance. So let's say we go into, we're going into one of these feedback sessions that, and, um, what, what are some tips, like even going into it, knowing that you're going into a, this, uh, a session. And I should clarify, like, there are ways to get feedback that are more asynchronous and stuff like that, right?

So you can, you know, use your project management thing. Hey, here's this thing. What do you feel about it? But like, really, Um, what we're talking about is having, having a meeting like a face to face, face to face and stuff like that, and where there's going to be a live conversation happening to solicit feedback, ultimately with the goal of moving this thing forward, like leaving that meeting and have actionable feedback to move forward.

Exactly. Yes. Yes. So if we're coming into this situation, how do you feel, what are some things that everybody Like both from the person who's created the work and is soliciting feedback and also the person who's giving feedback What how should they be? Let's start with the person Giving feedback. How should how should they come into that?

They need to understand who they're talking to first First, is this the person who actually did the work themselves, crafted that themselves? Most of the time it probably is where that person will be in on that meeting. So because of that, they're going to have a lot more ownership over it than if it's just two project managers sharing a PDA and going back and forth over it.

So there's a heightened emotional state potentially with that person. And so. understand and go into those situations with a little bit of grace and understanding that everybody is there for the same purpose. People are going to come to it with a lot of different understandings. Uh, they may come into a meeting and see something that was totally out of the blue and surprising to them.

But if there's a case made for it, you know, you need to be open to listening to what those cases are for whatever they're presenting. As a society, we'd probably be better if we just acknowledge that misunderstandings happen. Wow. Yes, that's right. Beautiful, beautifully said. And just in the in know that you're not going to as much as you'd like to have everyone be on the same page, it won't happen all the time, right?

Especially when you get into the subjective things that, that a lot of these feedback sessions are dealing in. That's messy. Yeah, because everybody comes to that subjectivity from a totally different place. Now, obviously, if you've got a long term relationship with that person, that's the advantage to having those long term relationships, as you know.

Where they're coming from and and kind of know their stance on a lot of that stuff. So it's a little bit easier There's more of a shorthand that you can use on a lot of those things, right? Yeah, and that's helpful I mean totally that gets you through a lot of issues very quickly I guess it's really like like we say kind of how do you enter the room?

You know, what what is what's your headspace when you get into that? And and do your best to not make it adversarial if it is something that's very difficult different, appreciate the creativity around what that solution may be, um, and try to be compassionate to what they've done. Now, if somebody is not done the work and not paid attention to something, uh, and, and it's very obvious, you know, obviously then you have questions and you can feel comfortable asking those questions and moving on but understand that with so much subjectivity even things that you may assume were very clearly outlined and I think this is the most important thing may not have been that clear to everybody and ideally you've got a process to kind of Get to those things.

And I think that's important to understand what is the hierarchy of importance behind the issues that you have mentioned because during a project, let's just say a logo, for example, there may be certain things that are very appropriate that you understand, and you may want to go down a certain path with colors or a look and feel on certain things.

And if it's not discussed and clearly outlined when you're going into that project, you may be going down a path where they come back and are very shocked and surprised and maybe Feel like it's too much like their competition or I don't like purple I thought we talked about that. You know, those are kind of anybody like purple.

Come on purples the royal color It's the color of royalty who doesn't love purple You say that because we were in Sacramento and the Kings are prominent here, huh? And I'm a big Prince fan as well Okay, so. So, okay, there are people who like purple. Thank you, Mike. All right. Talk about not connected to his community, Mike.

Geez. It's the contrarian nature. Just. Well, you are a hockey person and that's different. We don't have hockey here. This is California, by the way. We don't play hockey in California. Um, there's three. Professional NHL teams in California right now. Follow the money, I guess. Just, just saying. Okay. All right.

We'll acknowledge that purple is and it can be used in certain instances. Yeah, let's get back on track. All right. Okay, we've established purple is one of the better colors out there. I know I've done it a lot when I talk like, um, I could spout off 50 ideas in two minutes. Mm hmm. Really quickly and I might Like of those 50, your favorite, there's a couple of favorites and like, but I may not actively like communicate, like, Oh, of all those ideas I just threw out to you, uh, these are the, these are the ones I'd love to see.

And so you might come to it and you might've heard three other ones. And then when we come back to this meeting, they're like, I like my three. Yeah. Yeah. So if I'm the, if I'm in the position of like the stakeholder who's giving feedback here, like I have to come into this, Knowing and acknowledging that communication is not perfect, right?

We've said that before. Like, I don't know, my, my way of life ever since high school has been like, if you set your expectations really low all the time, you're bound to be happy about everything that comes up. Love that. Any party you go to, this party is going to suck. Yeah. And you show up the party and the party may be mediocre, but at least it's better than sucking.

Yeah. And it's, it, you're pleased, right? So go into a feedback session knowing, like expecting very little. That may not be the best approach for most people, I understand that, but I think having that sensibility to it and know that there might be, there's, communication is messy and there may be misunderstandings along the way.

And that kind of blunts that, the, the, the agitation maybe within you is like, well, I went in here with some low expectations and they're pretty good. Really doing great. Yeah. I mean, that's a terrible way to position, I guess. No, it's a professional service, but it is interesting approach. We might want to try it on a different website, you know, set your expectations very low and you're bound to be impressed.

I love that. I think maybe not, maybe instead of like setting expectations, but, um, maybe the expectations around some very subjective things. Yes. Right. Yeah. Like If I go into this meeting and I go, I hate purple, why did you put purple in there? Well, we've established that purple isn't as evil as I think it is.

And a lot of other people might like purple, right? Why would we dismiss it out of hand? That's a very subjective thing, right? So don't cling to those subjective things. So, so quickly, even like as you get into something like that, same with certain words, right? Yeah. There are words out there that people hate.

And for unreasonable. Trying to think if I've, if there's any particular words I hate. I know people who have strong feelings about certain words, examples, I'd love moist.

That's an extreme example, but what I'm getting at is that there's a, that, that some people have a, uh, can cling to certain words too. Like they assign other meeting to them. I think acknowledging that, like, yes, you are a stakeholder in this, but you also have to kind of see beyond that and see that like, you know what, like your subjective things may not be right.

All like might get. Might not be the most important thing when it comes to where this is going and what the intended making those assumptions is pretty dangerous. I think, because especially with creative people, because creative people's, their job is to make something that maybe doesn't fit a certain standard or a certain style.

You know, they're, if they're, they want to make a splash and an impact. And sometimes the way to do that is to think outside the box, as we always hate to say, but in a sense, that's really what. What you're getting paid for and sometimes that can be shocking and surprising and it is funny to see that in in clients faces When you're in that and maybe you've hit on a nerve that they didn't know they had even and that's what's really You've got to be able as the person giving feedback understand yourself a little bit and understand how you're communicating to your audience and the people taking that feedback and making sure that With everything you're saying, it's all aligned towards the goal of succeeding whatever that project was, and that's, if you keep that in mind, I think that's a really healthy approach to it.

Understanding that the person that's doing this work for you is trying their best to help you as much as possible. Yep. Be open to that, and appreciate that effort first. Even if you've got a difficult issue with something, and your instincts are, and I've been in the meetings with many people who, They can't really give the compliments too easily, but it's really easy to say the three things they hate about something.

Yeah. And, and that's probably just human nature. And I'm not picking on anybody in particular because I think that's our, you know, we're well, the internet is built up on positive comments everywhere on every comment thread everywhere, right? Totally. Yeah. That's what the internet was built on. The news positivity.

Yeah. The news, that's all they show on the news. It's just the good stories. So that's a good point. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's, it's a natural instinct to just go. You know, guns blazing. So fight that urge. You have to go in with an open mind, right? And not, not be fixed on any one thing and be able to, um, it probably for both sides too, right?

Like, don't get like, even for the people who, who are soliciting feedback, right? Go in there with an open mind, like maybe not have a like attachment, a strong attachment to what you're doing. Yes. If you do have a strong attachment, it would help to have some things to back it up. Like, for me, like, like, data or reasoning behind it.

Like, why'd you pick purple? Well, it's really royal. It has this feel of luxury, right? That's a thing. Eighty four percent of the world's population likes purple. Yeah, something like that, right? Like, instead of just saying, I don't know, it looks cool. I like it. I'm a big fan of purple. You know, like that you're, you're not gonna, there's not gonna be a good conversation there.

You're really just kind of, building up your tribe of purple lovers against people who don't like purple, right? So like being able to be open minded on both sides is another way to like, as you're going into that feedback session, just keep an open mind of what's to come. Well, and that's a hard part when you're the creator, right?

Is that the science to be able to Be a successful creator for a long period of time is to practice that muscle of putting your heart and soul and everything you have into something and then backing away from it and realizing that you might have to strike that from your resume because it just may not resonate with the public and even though you put your heart and soul into it when you have to, It's maybe gonna be end up on the cutting room floor and that you just have to live with that Yeah, it's a hard thing, but realize that it's not you shaving off a piece of your actual muscle and putting it out there Then you're it's not really a part of you that there you have to have a but I mean to that point You are the one who is so close to it Yeah, it's your thing.

It's your baby. I totally totally get why you would be in that mode and But you don't want to come into a defensive right like you want to again kind of more open minded about it Yeah, that's a hard thing. It's a really difficult thing and you have to be Very emotionally secure on both sides. And it really is a both sides of this that we're talking about.

Not just the client side or the producers or the vendor side of things. It's really understand that, you know, the successful things that come about. Think about the crazy stuff we see big agencies and big companies doing. They have to have a lot of faith that some of the crazy stuff that they do for advertising is going to work.

You know, they have to be very open minded on their end and understand that they're taking calculated risks, but taking risk nonetheless. And some of that risk is handing the keys over to an ad person or a marketing person and saying, Hey, if that works and that's a successful thing that gets people interested in our product.

I would have never thought of that. That's crazy. Yeah, maybe that's what's successful though and required for that So it takes that leap of faith. Okay, so we're so we've entered the meeting We're kind of not not holding too firm to any expectations. We're going into it with an open mind And now so we're we're In this part where we're revealing what we've been working on.

What are some common phrases you would hear that positive or negative? Let's start on the negative because then we can figure out how to, how to fix that negative side. Okay, that's good. We'll diagnose. We'll do a little role play. Yeah. Yeah. What's the problem here? Eric, what is this? This is not what I asked for.

Like, what were you thinking? I'm sorry. We, we had Done the work before, and we had, I thought we had a lot of conversations. Maybe we missed something. What specifically are you reacting to that you just what? There's some things here that are relevant to what the problem is that we're trying to solve.

What do you see here that isn't matching up with what was expected? There's way too much purple, way too much purple. I did not ask for that much purple. Is this like number one on your list of things you, you just, there's a no go on purple? Totally? We can have purple, but man, that's way too much. But it does symbolically represent a lot of what your product is all about.

You, you run a basketball team, right? The kings? Yes. Okay. Um, kings are royalty. Okay. So, purple just matches with that theme to begin with. But I don't like purple. Okay. Well, what's gonna work for your audience? What do you think they would react to? Because we're trying to get more people to go to these games.

Do you think there's, I mean, is this a personal preference thing? Yeah, it might just be a personal thing. You know what? I think you needed to see it first, and it's good to have that knowledge. Okay. And I feel like we've learned a lot from your hatred of purple. Yeah. And what, what colors come to your mind?

What would you like to see this basketball team? Hmm, that's a good question. Name the Kings. Well, I don't, I definitely don't want it to look like the Lakers. The Lakers. There are competition. How about a whole bunch of black? We need a contrasting color to that. We need something else to go off of as opposed to just black.

Black, white. I don't know. I'll know when I see it. Oh, oh gosh. Do I need to stay in character for that reaction? Cuz That's a hard one to hold in. You can break, you can break character on that one. Okay, thank God. Nah. Okay. Thank you for that moment. I just needed to let it out. I'd love to know how you handled that one because that one, that's a, that's a, with copy, with design, with things that are subjective things, like how, yeah, how do you, how do you walk through that when someone's like, I don't know, I'll know when I see it.

Well, I, you've got to ask a lot of questions, I think, after that. Yeah. I mean, this is, then we got to go into a, There's no getting out of a long meeting at that point. I mean, you need to uncover some stuff. It's, it's like a psychological breakdown at that point. I mean, you need to really, And this is where the feedback stuff really becomes an art.

Maybe having another person on the meeting so that you can take a moment. Yeah. Cry into a, handkerchief and then come back after they're done asking their questions. At that point, there's so many ways to go and you really need to be, make it a goal to leave that meeting with a lot more concrete, solid concrete direction.

And that's where, when they throw that out there, you got to go all the way back to square one and start clarifying your understandings and what their understandings were and just work your way back to. Do you think that there's other stand ins like little things like that people could? like substitute that phrase for like when they say, um, I'll know when I see it, could they say like, instead, I don't know, I haven't really thought about that very much yet.

Or like my thinking is it's an organization of thought and you've put something out. And people aren't, haven't really thought it through. They haven't had a chance to think it through or they really, they've been presented with new stuff. So they haven't had time to process it. That's part of it. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And they don't know how to get it out of their head to move it forward. Right. So you have to kind of talk through some of that stuff. That that's a good alternative to what I just suggested where we pepper them with a million questions. And I don't want to, You know, go at somebody with a bunch of accusatory questions, by the way, asking somebody why is probably the most accusatory of all questions.

So starting any, any question with why is bound to go somewhat negative. So, I mean, maybe it could be like, I ask you, um, or I say, I don't know, I'll know when I see it, you could say, well, why don't we just take a little bit of time. Off and we could process this stuff and you can think about what's not hitting.

Yeah, like that would be one way. That's another good way of kind of diffusing things, especially in a time constraint situation. You know, even if the whole project, if there's only a short amount of time for a meeting, it does help for them to go back. Yeah. On their own. And, uh, you know, a lot of the presentations that we'll do around branding and things like that, there's always a process of some minor feedback after the first presentation.

Oh, I like this, but that's neat. Oh, you did it. That's funny. You know, I appreciate that. But it, a lot of times it's a lot more successful when, okay, great. We end the meeting, we'll deliver the PDF. Or whatever it is that we're sending to them and they can then take a look at it. Why don't you get back to me tomorrow?

Time to sit with it and kind of organize those thoughts. Right. So instead of spending a bunch of time like heading this towards a contentious thing, which might be the first instinct if somebody says, I'll know when I see it. Yeah. Um, maybe you say, well, you know what, like this is definitely a situation where I think we might need time to, to process.

I do like to take temperature at that point though and just say, are we 90 percent wrong or 10 percent wrong? That's a good question. Just kind of help them or help us understand because sometimes it's 5 percent wrong and they're completely flying off the handle because we didn't get it. But 95 percent of it was right.

So then, you know, I can sleep at night. You know, if you're going to play basketball or you're playing. tennis, right? Is that what's going on? Or is it more like pickleball in tennis? Right? Like, are you close? Like, can you adapt the court a little bit? You know, that's a great question. Like how close are we?

Like, okay. I know you'll know when you see it, but are we far off in that situation? Right. You're, you're trying to, as you're trying to, uh, establish, are you even playing the same game? That's not what they've been working on this whole time. They're off doing a whole bunch of other things. Their mindset might not, maybe they forgot what you established.

Right. Right. So like being able to go back and say, Hey, this is what, this is where we are here. This is how I got to there. Is there anything, did I miss something in getting to here? Like that might be another way to kind of clarify that. Yeah, and that's why it's important to kind of cover that ground when you're doing an initial presentation or sending that stuff to that person to review.

And as that person going into that review, understand that nothing will be perfect. That's the value again of those big long relationships. That person will probably nail it pretty close 98 percent of the time. Yeah. Um, but going into those and understanding that if it's not that type of relationship, Yeah.

Understand that it's not going to be perfect. And your expectations are not that it's supposed to be perfect. If you outline everything down to the dotted I, cross T, and feel like there is so much explicitly explained in that meeting, it's still surprising to come out of that and see how people have interpreted things that are a little bit more on the subjective side.

What do they say? Feedback is a gift, right? Or it can be a gift, I guess. Right? Like, I think, I think as creators, sometimes you can get kind of locked into a view of things, right? And being able to like, get feedback from other people who have a different point of view can really help you see it removes blind spots and stuff, right?

Like on the website of things, like one thing that's just really helpful is like to, if you've got a webpage, sending it to somebody else and go, Hey, Can you try and do this thing? It's amazing. You send that to three or four people. You might see three or four different ways of going through that webpage, right?

It's like, and it helps reveal those, those things. So like going into feedback sessions and acknowledging that this feedback can help improve you as well as the creator to create something that's better for everybody too. This is why when we do any sort of project and I would make a pretty blanket statement on things that.

We allow for one or two rounds of revisions on everything we do. I mean it just goes without saying it has to So understand that this isn't like i'm done designing something for you. Take it all done. Yeah That's it. Good luck. I'm going on break It just doesn't work that way. No There's it's that there's a massaging of the process that's built into everything that we're doing.

Yeah, and that's just We have some wonderful clients that understand that and know it's going to take a long time to figure out this very nuanced piece of communication and we're going to hit and we're not going to hit and we're going to miss and but they understand that they're in it for the long haul.

We are too and eventually it's going to be greater than anything that one person given a short amount of time can produce. So we're talking about like these feedback sessions. We're in a meeting. We're either on zoom together or we're in person. I know a lot of places it's more it's emails. You're sending, you're throwing, as I say, throwing it over the wall and waiting for stuff like that.

My opinion is that everyone has to be really good. Really clear communicators and everything in that kind of asynchronous where everything's kind of, you know, typed up and everything. Um, do you think there can be good feedback, um, given in this asynchronous thing where there's a lot of tools that provide that kind of feedback and everything?

I have mixed feelings. A lot of it depends on that person and their ability to communicate and, and really get to the point of what, you know, it could eventually sound like. You know they may type a lot of words, but it might sound like I don't know what I like But I will when I see it kind of a thing yep, and that's always challenging.

I mean seeing Things typed out and, and that's where it's like typing emails. You got to be careful. You can't, you can't joke around and be super silly or anything like that because things can be misstruen very quickly and easily with, you know, punctuation sometimes where all of a sudden somebody's, you've really hurt somebody's feelings because you weren't super clear on things.

And that's where it gets into a little bit of a danger zone, I would say. So it's always nice to kind of hear from them, talk it out, you know, cause that's, that, that gets into that dynamic that I think is really important too. Where if you do have those kinds of misunderstandings of where things are at and people are honestly telling you, I don't understand what you're talking about, which is hard to say to a client.

I didn't, cause it makes you, you think you sound stupid, even though you're trying to clarify things. I try to always understand that my questions and my perspective are super valuable, even if they might be. less informed about certain topics or subjects. Uh, the strength of what we offer is that outside perspective, which is why a lot of people come in and talk to us and why we do a lot of work for people that need us to kind of interpret the vision of the general public.

How are they going to take this? So it helps us to not be in the weeds with these people. Which is hard if you're in house. Sometimes that's a challenge. You know, if you're in in house first marketing, you're in the weeds already. So having that outside perspective is super valuable. Yeah, because there's interpretations that are made that you may not know are being made.

That's also why I like to have people explain things to me that maybe are very nuanced and difficult to understand. Tell it to me three different ways or explain it to me like I'm five. You know, there's a lot of different techniques for getting people to try to reinterpret their vision in their own head.

And this can be on both sides, a creative person or the, the marketer or, you know, the stakeholder or whatever is try to explain. If people are not understanding it, or even if you've got the time and feel like you can sit there and explain it, try to do it from three different angles. You know, if I was this person, person, or if I was this customer, I was seeing it from the outside as this person, how would they interpret that?

So I know that we try to offer a lot of that feedback or insights to people, but that's a super valuable. I don't know. I'm becoming a firm believer in like, if you, if you can't get it, if the, if it, if you're trying to default to email feedback and everything like that, if there are weird questions that come up in that first round, you're going to save yourself a lot of pain and headache by just trying to get it.

Get in a room together, get in a zoom room together and, and let the conversation happen. You're going to save yourself a lot of future pain if you can do some of those things, like some of these tricks you're talking about, like coach, coach three different explanations of the problem, you know, like explain it to me.

Like you're five, you can do that a way quicker in a, in a call than you could. And it still surprises me. Sometimes you ask him that and they explain it to you're like, Holy cow. Like what? Yeah. Okay, now I get it. It's happened so often. It's so often. Oh, that's what you mean. Um, and you could be two, three meetings in and they've sat there and explained it to you many, many times and, you know, I mean, we're small, smart people.

It's not that nobody doesn't have the mental capacity to figure it out. It's just that the vision, sometimes getting it out of heads and into people's other heads is a messy process. So let's talk about everybody's favorite scenario when trying to get feedback. You've got. Multiple stakeholders like one or two, Mike, or I'm talking like maybe six to 10.

That's a rough who feel like they need to have input on things like, um, what do you do? Well, one, try and avoid it at all costs. Like, like, let's say you, I think almost any time there's any of the kind of stakeholders that have that size, like, well, you need a decider. You need that galvanizer, the one person who's going to be like corralling all that stuff and playing the kind of like the manager of all those things, or you have to do it yourself, which that's.

Really extra credit there. Yeah, that's a tough one politically too because that's the thing is that person has to sit in a political spot as well. And if you're an outsider and you don't have the wherewithal to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of that, the more I think about it, like you've got, you've got a big group and I'm thinking immediately back to like Betty and accounting who felt it was super important that people had access to their financial statements, um, easily on the website in a primary place when They're like, that's, that's not what their primary thing is like, right?

Like she had an outsized voice in the group because there's a mix of extroverts all that stuff. Right. So, um, I think being able to go into that and like, no, who, what, what are we working on? What are we getting feedback on? And what, what are we trying to accomplish with this thing that can help filter some of those things, right.

In large groups. Right. Like, yeah, I understand what you're saying. But that's not what this is for. We've looked at the hierarchy of needs for this project. That's number 18 on the list, basically. And you know what, again, go back to the organization and say, okay, this wasn't in our, this is, wasn't in our kickoff.

Right. Everything. But, so, I don't know, everybody else, do, do, did something change? Do we, should we, I don't know, it's weird. Revisit this list and make our, re establish what our hierarchy is on needs? Yeah. You do have to be a bit of a politician. Okay, well, yeah. How do we get an agreement between you two?

And we have to have a bipartisan deal here. There are some situations where if I, because I'll kind of, when I'm pre qualifying new, newer clients, I'll ask them that question specifically. How many people, how many stakeholders are at play here? Yeah. And if it's more than three, I get very nervous and then prices start to go up because I know the feedback loops tend to get polluted and I have no problem working through it.

Just, it takes longer. It just takes longer. Takes a lot longer. Yeah. And, um, I don't know, you also run the risk of that. You have to be really good about keeping Yeah, and I am the goal right because the goal might change as time as those feedback loops inevitably get longer Yep, people will change their mind and lose sight of the goal.

And yeah, and that shifts. That's when scope creep just gets that's People sign off on things and make sure these milestones and goals are solid and agreed upon and yeah And I sometimes if you know Potential clients want to come and work with us. And I see that red flag and they, but they still want to do it, but they maybe have budget issues, you know, I will say, okay, then somebody on your team, and I explained that scenario that you just, they're the decider.

There's no more than three in a meeting. You know, I have, we have to set down some ground rules around that. If there, if those challenges, cause it does, it just makes, you know, scope creep. We've had, Legendary projects that, uh, have moved their way through the studio that, um, you know, for one reason or another suffer from that.

We can talk about Scope Creep and a whole other Podcast, but the idea of scope creep is that you've assigned a project outcome and goals around it. And then the goals change or the, the way we get to those goals changes and it keeps adding or changing happens a lot on websites when, um, when you have a list of pages that you, you're working on, right.

And then, but there's some. inferred functionality that might be part of a web page or something like that. I don't know what happens in publications we build, we build too, right? Like, Hey, uh, you know, we, we said this is gonna be a 24 page thing, but, um, well, we have way more to say. Um, we need to expand this to be 48 pages.

That's a change in scope. That's, that's in its, um, that's a more abrupt Scope creep is when it just kind of incrementally, there's all these tiny decisions that keep stacking on top of each other. That's why websites are, yeah. Websites are ripe for that. Because traditional print publication stuff, it comes on just deliverable stuff almost in the sense where, Oh, okay, you want another banner?

Okay, that's fine. Yeah, you just keep working through a list websites though. They're like, well, let's think about memberships. Maybe we do want to go down that road and logins. Oh, and file repositories that are password. Yeah, let's think about it. Well, geez, now you're that's a different project. It's totally, totally, that's all we could have a whole series of podcasts about that one, probably, but I think that, um, when you have a bigger group, it inevitably is going to happen unless you get everybody on the, really, a shared understanding of, you know.

Yeah, exactly what the goal is and be very targeted towards that discipline, discipline and communication, discipline and scope and boundaries. And we're only working on this and we're focusing on this and being very explicit around that stuff helps. Yeah, for sure. So, um, I think another thing that can really be, um, when we're talking about feedback, another thing that can be really kind of, um, a challenge, let's say, is, um, indecisiveness.

Assuming you've kicked off the project efficiently, or officially, you've got a, you've got the scope of what you're working on, right? Like, how long is it reasonable to like, let somebody sit with it? Well, I, so, I mean, I, I always say the most important reaction is First immediate reaction. So whether you're looking at something or reading it, something, or you're scrolling through a website design or something like that, that should be pretty important and the gut, the gut is huge on this thing.

So that's where I limit the amount of time to get back now, depending on people's subject or schedules and how they run their communication with you. I mean, a week seems like a very long time, but it's really, you're just trying, hoping that they fit in whatever that is like, you know, An hour. Let's say you need an hour.

They need an hour, but you got to figure out when they're going to fit that hour into the rest of everything else that's going on. That hour sounds about right. Like you should, you should have a pretty good feel for what things feel like, whatever they are, um, right away. So would you come into that feedback session with a really good idea?

Of maybe setting expectations when decisions needed to be made in coach towards that always. Yeah, I think that that's really important, especially if there's critical deadlines in play. I mean, you need to do a good job of outlining that schedule probably before the project even begins. You know, we're going to need and our bigger scale projects that have a critical deadline.

We know before we even get anything, when that's due and going to print or going, you know, back for these rounds of revisions and things like that. So, all that stuff is scheduled out very explicitly, every round of feedback, how long they have it, how long we have it, um. You know, and deadlines are down to the hour on some of these things.

Because when you're looking at a lot of those things, you can, having that planning ahead of time, you can also enter that feedback session and go, yeah, I know you're not going to have all the answers and you might need to sit with a couple of these things, but, and we can give you until X amount of time.

Yeah. And that, so it gives it, it's not like maybe sometimes. Some people, the, some people just need to think it through a little bit further. I speak for myself as an example, right? The gut, the gut does tell you a lot. Yeah, but there might be like, you just gotta like, you just gotta test against the gut a little bit.

It's like a 65 35 thing. Gut, 65, but there is this, for me anyway, that's kind of how I approach it, yeah. And so like, just being able to have that option and tell people, it might set them at ease. Like maybe some of the feedback tension is that people feel like they need to have the answer right then.

Right. Right. Right. So being able to allow a little bit of time after to, for people to digest and think about it. And that's a good thing to clarify on the beginning of those feedback rounds is say, you know what, we're going to give you this at the end. You can think about it. You don't feel the pressure, take the pressure off of them to react because sometimes those reactions are not productive.

Yeah. Let's just say, you know, and they may be a little bit more emotional. All right. I mean, feedback, it's, it's an art, getting feedback, giving feedback, making sure that everybody's kind of feelings are, are represented. I know it sounds woo woo. No, no, no. But I think there's feelings, but there's also like the, Like, we need to leave these feedback sessions ready to take the next step and move, right?

Like there's, there's actionable things. Everybody leaves these feedback sessions knowing what's happened. But like, or do you have any pro tips over your years of experience like dealing with these things? Well, I mean, it's always helpful to disarm the situation immediately because everybody's probably a little tense when we're reviewing and whether it's from the creative or, you know, there's anticipation, there's excitement.

So there's a heightened, you know, emotions around the whole process a little bit. Um, you know, our clients get excited about stuff that we're doing for them. So they're really excited to look at stuff. And if there's that initial disappointment, that's again, they should set their expectations low. Go in low.

Exactly. But if you are giving feedback, remember your first reactions may not be the most positive reactions and really work towards trying to say the positive things first. Okay. And, and maybe it's just one big thing, but just say, Wow, you, it, this looks like a lot of work. You guys did a great job.

Thanks for putting in all this effort. You know, I can't say that I like purple, and every one of these designs has purple in it. So we're gonna have to go back to that, but I feel like that that starting that way is just like one of the My BS detector goes off right away, but you're disarmed. You're still at ease, right?

You're not you may be like, okay What's next which is fine, but at least you're not like looks like you tried hard That's what I hear. Thank you. It looks like you're trying really hard, but you're not getting it Like that's what I heard when you when you said that How would you like to get the feedback?

You're not get what is this? You're not getting it. Is that better? Way better. Way better. No. As the person? No. Not at all. Not at all. Okay. Like I'm just saying soften it a little bit. Maybe I'm hokey and I kinda was a little too I I like Start with a positive. I'm revealing some of my tricks here. Like, I think that in that scenario, I would say, Oh, I see where you're going with this.

Like, I, I totally like, you're like, you're like kind of empathizing, trying to put yourself there. And I see where you're going with this, but there's a lot of like, but you know, like, I don't know if, is that what you're talking about? Like it's the old compliment sandwich Yes. Thing. Yes. Like it's the tried and true, but it does.

Help people just kind of lower, because everybody's coming into it, there's anticipation, whether it's worry, concern, excitement, whatever it is. Just, just lower the temperature in the room a little bit. That's all. So, instead of saying, it looked like you tried really hard, would it, like, or other, can you, like, point to maybe more specific things?

Like, I really like what you did here. Yes, that's perfect. Like, like, the more specific you can be. And as somebody who's giving a productive feedback, the art is to really, if it's not meshing or working, there's some things that can be working. And so what that shows when you start off showing that and talking about those things is that could be the starting point of where things go next.

If they're really falling off the trail. This is a good place to get back on the trail, and I really like where this is headed. Let's start, let's start here. If there's a real dip mismatch, Um, that gives you a good roadmap, maybe to get started on something. I think from the giving feedback side of things, again, I like to think of it as like, Well, I don't know, second, third grade, you know, when they give it, when you have worksheets to fill out and they, they ask you a question and they start trying to teach you how to write complete sentences, right?

Like, if you think of giving feedback in that way, so instead of saying, um, what do you think about this that we've got here? I don't like it. You could say, I don't like it because I think that it's a little bit cartoonish or like, if you can back up your feedback with reasoning, you're going to help provide the person, right?

Like that's another way to kind of, that's another trick of giving feedback. It's been a while since I've been in third grade, but you just graduated out of third grade so that I can see where that's fresh in your mind. I'm on the Billy Madison program. So yeah, I'm on, um, Seventh, seventh grade right now.

I wondered. Yeah, but okay. Yeah, just so it's confirmed. Yeah I think a party at the mansion's happening next week as big takeaways like quick little like overview. Well, just remember, you know Try to do no harm Yeah, yeah, I mean be we're all human beings in this, you know flexibility plays I mean, you're all working towards the same goal, right?

Yeah, imagine. Yeah, it's it that we're all just working towards Accomplishing something. So everything should be kind of communicated in that realm. Like, all right, let's get in there. Let's really work on this problem together Yeah, that's really helpful. Yeah, because I you know, everybody doesn't have a hundred percent Record.

So I think if there's that understanding going in and you can be flexible around it and understand that most people want to be collaborative in this experience and that should be explicit and why they're probably working with you, uh, understand that, you know, we're, we're all going to get there and, and, and maybe that's what it takes.

I've even said that in, in meetings, like, all right, sounds like we had some mismatches here, but I know that we're going to, we've got some great feedback. Thank you so much. We're going to take that and. Push it to the next level and if the feedback goes a little sideways and you can get through some of these things like being able To wrap it up with a bow like that on a positive.

No, like all right. I know we I know is rocky Sounds like we're all on the same page, right and like confirm that you're on the same page So you're not you don't go into another feedback session where there's a lot of yeah, where it goes sideways again Cuz I honestly after meetings like that were You can sense the disappointment in the room.

Usually those next meetings are pretty successful. They kind of elevate above and beyond even what the expectations may have been for that next meeting. So, yeah, don't lose hope. Go in an open mind. Know that there may be rough patches. Because you're dealing with humans, right? Emotions, communication.

There's a lot of stuff in that stew, and you know what? If you just start throwing things into a stew, it may not be good. You gotta get the right mix and the right recipe. But setting your expectations as low as possible. Absolutely. May be the real secret to a successful stew. I don't know. I think it's been great thinking just big takeaways, keep an open mind.

Be flexible. Be flexible. Be positive. Positive. Yes. Know that you're all in it for the same shared goal. It's a big collaboration. That's right. I can't wait for the next feedback. Send it in. We welcome feedback. It's a gift. Thanks everybody. Thank you. Thanks Eric.

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