There’s a Budget?

This is why I went to art school, Mike. To talk about money. To talk about money and spreadsheets and budgets and those kind of things. Yeah. Yes. If you, you know, if you succeed far enough in this business. Your life will be spent typing and doing math.

Welcome to the marketing team in one podcast, where we have conversations about the issues one person marketing team space when trying to meet their goals with limited time and budgets. Now here's your hosts, Eric and Mike. Say, Eric, what's got your goat today? You can't just do that. You can't just throw me got your goat.

This is not the goat podcast, Mike. Oh, gosh. Isn't that our aspiration? Nice. Yes. Maybe we're already the goat. The, yeah, the, the furry farm animal. There's Yeah, probably. Probably both. I don't think of goats now when people say goat. It's been I know, they've totally ruined it. There's one every year now.

There was, you know, Brady There's way too many goats out there. Caitlin Clark now, goat. Yeah. I would argue probably true. Yeah. Very true. Yep. The goat game is Definitely been elevated the past few years. What's Michael Jordan grazing on? And yes, I said Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time. I don't want to hear from LeBron people.

Alright. That was our era, man. Jordan. Yeah. That was definitely. And I'm not, but I'm not wearing my Jordans today. Tell you what's got my goat. Money. Money? Money. That's got my goat. Yeah. That's why, you know, I'm a hype beast, you know. Oh, I've heard of that once or twice. But that's why I'm wearing the shoes today.

You can see the shoes have the green stripes to represent the money talk. Oh, awesome. Okay. Is part of your art schooling, do they have any personal accounting or personal finance classes that are required? Uh, no. No, they assume you got that in high school. Yeah. Okay, so I'm all up for teaching that on high school Oh, absolutely, because you can't you know, you go into college You're not gonna be taught like here's how you work a checkbook and all that stuff.

That should be high school material So we should talk about like it is a it is a gap there Like when that for the most part most art school students are pretty much Paying money to go to school with hoping that they can get a return on their investment And so they it seems like they should be armed a little bit with some financial knowledge of how things work To help, you know So they can start paying off those student loans if they have them or something like that, right?

like so they can Do that more effectively so they're not stuck paying student loans for 40 years. Well, yeah I mean there's a bunch of different ways you could look at that actually now that has me thinking as a graphic design Student somebody learning what we used to call commercial art. Yes I don't know what it's called now.

It still is, right? Is it? Okay, good. I don't know. I, we, designers. I mean our art is applied to way more than commercials, but. Right. But that's one of them. As I like to think of it, we weren't a service, a professional service. Yeah. If you look at the, you know, Bureau of Labor Statistics. That's what we are.

We're categorized as a professional service. So we do design, but we do marketing. Advertising things like that. That's a profession. It's like a lawyer's accounting, you know, professional services firm. That's right. That's right. That's what we are Um, so I wish I learned that earlier though Yeah, you brought up art school like I didn't it and I worked in a graphic i've worked at a graphic design firm since i was 19.

Yeah, so i've always pretty much my professional life has been in these kind of scenarios Uh, but it took me decades to actually And there was always a corner of my brain Wondering like why why do people Why am I doing this thing? Why am I making this package? Why am I drawing this picture or whatever it is?

And for decades I was always doing that and you know, maybe you didn't have to worry about it too much back then It seems like now it's really helpful to know the full spectrum of where you fit into that business model, right? I would argue you're probably a more valuable person, even if you're not, you know, tightly connected to the money flows or the money conversations, something like that.

But having an awareness of that makes you a better person and a better member of the team anywhere. Right? Yeah. Having a better understanding of the business, the role you serve in the business and how you're helping the business make money. And, you know, always being attuned to that. I think it's, it's important.

Yeah, it's essential. You could not, and there's a lot of people who maybe don't or don't care, you know, but like you're going to be more valuable in the eyes of your boss if you can have some money conversations and know that place that you're talking about. It gets everybody on somewhat of a level playing field too, because you don't.

Have as many questions about intent around what you're doing or what's being asked of you. You can kind of see a bigger picture of, you know, Oh, we make this much money from these services and we take the profit or extra from this side and we pay for these things over here. And, you know, there's a, it's a, it's actually very interesting.

And that's, what's really cool about it is I feel like, yes, I came from a very creative background, but. I feel like now creativity is being expressed, not just in some of the design work and art direction and creative direction that I give, but also in like working with you to like craft business ideas.

And those are really exciting because they're include all that stuff, plus more, plus business, plus. I think, uh, the term creativity kind of always seems to be like, Oh, that's the right brain thinkers. The ones that can do these crazy artistic type things. But I think creativity is so much bigger than that.

And yeah, applying it to business solutions or business, um, problems. It like, if you have somebody who's a creative thinker, they can really unlock some things that maybe if people who aren't, I think everybody's creative. I don't want to say that nobody's. Not creative, you know what I mean? Yeah, I hope that the understanding isn't that, well, I can't draw that person.

I can't draw Tippy. It's so funny, it's so funny how closely tied together the idea of creativity and being able to draw art. I know. And like, if I can't draw, I'm not creative. Right. Sure you are, right? Yeah. There's some creative accountants out there. Just look at a lot of the jails out there They're filling our prison.

Yeah, there's some creativity there too. That's part of part of our human human nature Those to try to express ourselves and make things, you know, that's one thing that obviously separates us from the animals Although animals make things too, you know, they make houses and nuts and tools and stuff. Yeah, we're way better at it You know?

Yeah. Just saying. I'm sure, not to flex on the animal kingdom, but Yeah, we just lost half our audience right now. I gotta keep my dogs come back cats. You can leave dogs. Come on in Hey, let's leave our feline friends as part of the party. Okay All right. Um, pretty fragile around that issue. I know, I know you're feeling ganged up on.

I am. Yes. You've got this new understanding, right? You've, you've been in the marketing world for a while. And then as you've worked through things, you start to realize like that the money coming into the business has to serve a lot of different things. Like, is there, what have you seen? What do you, what do you do?

Do you have any insights into? Well, it was always interesting to learn where the money came in. You know revenue streams and then what they used and where it got spent and then how they Categorize things on how it gets spent, you know, like where all the little different corners, you know You got to buy a bottle of windex.

You gotta you know, sweep the floors You gotta pay somebody to fix things you gotta you know, there's all these different why you know when you look at a company There's just all these categories in it and When you look at companies, obviously like sales and marketing is one of the biggest things that we run into all the time.

We, we talk to business owners and leaders at businesses all the time about their business and how they get their business. The, those are the things as you learn all that stuff, those are the great valuable questions you can have. And that's why leadership appreciates it. Cause you understand the landscape, you understand where you fit into it.

And then you can talk to larger issues that. Maybe reach out to other parts of that business, sales teams, operations, people, you know, admin people. So you kind of understand how they're all organized and built. Um, and then what budgets they have, how do they spend their money? Where do they put their focus on things?

Is it R and D? Is it sales and marketing? Cause when you start looking at those budgets and you look at the sizes of the companies and I'm. My you know, we're talking to smaller companies probably 15 million on average revenue. Yeah, but you have to look at What is how are they establishing their budgets because?

As a solo marketer, you need to understand how much money you have to spend on things and how much firepower you have to put behind all these different efforts. Let's say I'm a solo marketer and I'm here trying to accomplish all the marketing goals for the, for the company. Right. And I have no insight into budgets and maybe.

I don't even get the feeling there are budgets like, but let's say I want to, I, I, I, I want to have that conversation with my boss and say like, Hey, if I have this amount of budget. How to, like, how can I provide guidance to the boss? This is assuming the boss doesn't have any kind of budget whatsoever.

Like, are there benchmarks? Is there something that we can, we can come armed with? With that, now that we have some financial literacy about what the company, how the company runs and everything, and trying to get maybe even more responsibility. If you have a budget and take over responsibility, give me a budget and I'll optimize it.

But what are those numbers? How do you even come up with those numbers? Yeah. I think that's the thing is every conversation will eventually go to money. Yep. Cause that's one of the resources that's finite and it's, you know, time, money. Those are the two big things that you're going to be battling your entire career.

But yeah, that's a good question because. There may not be established budgets. This may be small, small organizations just kind of fly by the seat of their pants. I mean, we've, we've worked with them all the time and it's been interesting. Even some of the larger companies we've talked to, we've said, okay, well, what's the budget?

And they're very tight lipped about it. And maybe that's just the nature of the relationship, us being outside partners. Uh, but it really does help to just kind of understand what those budgets are. And a lot of times what we'll have to do is just kind of go in on the assumption Of what the budget will be.

If we made it up out of, cause we're not getting any of that data. They're just getting, they're giving us the thumbs up or the thumbs down. No, that's too expensive. Like with no real ideas and a single marketer inside of one of those organizations might run into the same push and pull where you just, Somebody just comes down off the mountaintop and says, no, that's too expensive.

And you're like, well, why, why can't I do that? That really throws a monkey wrench into my hopes and dreams here for what we want to do as far as reaching our goals. So there are things Deloitte does a quarterly CMO survey. CMO survey. org. I'll just reference it on the podcast, but we'll put it in links in the description down below in the, in the, in the YouTube.

Uh, but you can go there and you can see it and it's free. Everybody can see it. And they do a really deep dive. I think it's hundreds of pages of data around, around being a marketing and what all these, things are about. Companies do and CMOs are doing and what they're seeing, and they break it down really nicely by company size, company type.

Are they B2B or are they B2C? Those make big, big differences. You know, if you're just selling to businesses, are you selling a product or are you selling a service? So that's where it kind of starts is they, is it B2B product or is it B2B service? Is it B2C product or is it B2B product? Yeah. B2B service.

Sorry. Did I lose me? I think I lost myself there. It's the Red Bull. I'm like Eminem, lose yourself. I just lost myself, but that's interesting. Cause you can see by industry and by size, how much companies spend on marketing on average. So that's some information that you can arm yourself with to go in and talk to the leadership.

If they have no idea, or they're not really interested in talking about it, you can say, well. We kind of have to establish some sort of boundaries around this. And that might be a difficult conversation, but if they're working on goals, sell more, get more customers, get more leads, there's a cost to that.

You can't just do it. You know, there's services, there's products, maybe there's professionals out there that you could hire to help you do that. Um, but you need to know what that information is. So that's a really helpful survey to go through. And it's interesting to see the trend lines too, of where they're spending, you know, are they spending less or more?

Or what's the economy. Kind of telling them, but usually they, they measure it by revenue. So how much money is the whole company taking in based on that number? And every company has different ways of dividing up that revenue. Some spend all that revenue on all of their people, you know, and services tend to be, be like that.

All the money comes in, all the money goes out. Yeah. There's very little overhead. There's very little other. There's not a lot of R&D, there's not a lot of, you know, manufacturing equipment or, you know, trucks or something like that. Uh, so B2B services, that's what we do, but B2B. B2C tends to be have to have a little bit more firepower behind their marketing and sales because they're going out to a larger audience They kind of break it up.

They start off breaking it up by those four quadrants We just talked about and then they break it up by industry if you're B2B the average is about seven percent So seven percent of revenue. Yeah, so I make a million dollars. Yep. You're spending 70, right? Yeah, so Yeah, I haven't learned math yet. No 70, 000.

Yes. It's interesting too. When you say 70, 000 does that go to a staff person? You're paying 70, 000 and then that's it you're done Or are you putting that payroll on a different part of your books? Yeah, and how do you come up with that seven percent is always interesting We always pretty much just think personnel is personnel and You know That 70, 000 is spent on all the different parts of it, not the person itself.

So that's another thing that's kind of interesting. And you need to kind of define that. Uh, I know this is marketing or business one on one stuff, but it's still good to kind of understand there's advertising, there's marketing, and then there's sales. So there's really three teams. Working all off of what could potentially be the same budget.

So you need to kind of establish just to redefine what that means. Advertising would be stuff where you're buying eyeballs or buying placement somewhere where visibility, you're buying visibility, TV commercials, billboards, you're buying advertising, podcast ads. Think about it. It's powerful. Then you've got marketing, which is very general, but they're providing most of the tools.

You could say they're providing the funnel as it were if people understand what a sales funnel is that Marketing is kind of the top part of the funnel where you're just general information Helping people with their awareness and their consideration phase of that funnel And then you've got sales people and those that sales sales.

We'll just call it sales most of the time. Those are sales people Um, and those are people who might have to do You More high touch kind of relationship based selling if it's a high dollar product or service where you know It's tens of thousands hundreds millions of dollars The lot of that work is not just click a box buy now on the website.

It's A relationship it's taking that person getting to know them. I know in the past i've heard companies They'll use like golf club memberships As a big part of their sales Tickets to a football game like season tickets to football games. Those are part of go under what would be sales That would be a sales cost But you need to look at the company too and see do they funnel all those all that budget into You Marketing, advertising, and sales.

Or do they break that up a little bit? Because, uh, depending on how they use that. And I would assume that there's a lot based on your sales process. and what's required that if you are lumping together advertising, marketing, and sales into one slice of the pie, you'd have to evaluate like, um, how long is the sales process?

How much, how, how curated does the sales process need to be? Like for a, for a simple B2C type thing where you've just got, you're just selling widgets. There isn't a sales process, right? It's for the most part, it's usually lower cost. Um, There might be a little, depending on the product, but like in, when you're talking about B2B, some of those things are really high ticket things, right?

You have to build a relationship. You might not know that you're not just going to get a call out of the blue and say, Hey, I'm ready to spend, you know, 80, 000 on this thing. That's good. That could take years to kind of get that kind of thing, right? So you probably have more that you, so you would have sales taking more of that.

That's a piece of the pie, right? And maybe marketing is taking a little bit less. Maybe there's no advertising at all. So, so it's a weird mix and every company is going to have their own mix, right? But they have to identify, have a good, A lot of clarity about how effective all those different things are and work closely together on all those too.

Make sure that marketing is working in tandem with sales to make the best of that or else you're gonna have two different departments fighting it out over budget dollars. When you're sharing like a piece of the market or the budget, let's say it's management ownership doesn't see a difference between advertising and marketing.

And I could see how they wouldn't, right. They're all like, those could be very easily lumped together. Right. But if they also bundle sales into there, right. Especially in a B2B thing where marketing's pure goal is to try and feed leads to sales. Right. Yep. Like, how, how can you, do you have any ideas about how you can make sure that that marketing and sales work closely together and that they're not too adversarial about it and really fighting for the budget?

Like, marketing wants to advertise with uh, You know, a Super Bowl ad and the sales team wants to go to the Super Bowl and take a client like, like how do you, is there a way to, do you have any insights into that of how you might handle that? Yeah, and I think that goes into the calculus that you need to work out as to what is the product, what's the sales cycle, what is it, one of those products or services that relies heavily on a, and establish what those ratios are, and maybe even break it down into a math problem and just use that as your guide to say, yeah, maybe sales has to get 80 percent of the budget.

Um, but that 20 percent try to preserve and fight for and maximize as much as possible because it just might make more sense for whatever your Selling and trying to close deals on so that's where it comes into big differences when you're talking about like direct to consumer Mm hmm, and that's where you can see where that marketing budget goes way up.

Sometimes it'll be 20 to 30 percent Yeah If they're selling a product 20 percent of 20 to 30 percent of the revenue is spent on sales has spent on marketing specific because that's wild Yeah, because you also think that probably in a lot of well Depending on how mature the company is, right? Like another percentage of that is probably going to R and D as well.

Right? Like you must do well, shoot. You must need some really good margins on your stuff to make up for that. Right. I think that's why the, like the startup community is a really interesting one to look at because they. They're just burning through cash. They don't really have much revenue. And that's why those percentages possibly are so high is because the other side of their equation is there's very little revenue.

So well, they're not profitable. Yeah, they're not profitable. And I mean it took Amazon how many years of being a publicly owned company to become profitable? It was like 15 or 16 years or something before they actually turned a profit. But people knew that once they did the flywheel would be running and It would just keep generating more and more cash.

Uh, so that's interesting when it comes to learning about some of those decisions. But yeah, when you look at like what phase of the, what phase of business, what, what, what part of the life cycle is that company in as well? Are they early on startup? Are they mid range looking to kind of grow and expand into a new market or are they very well established and just.

Like we talked about before on this podcast Are they just keeping the lights on and just keeping the heartbeat going, you know, and maybe that's all they need So they need to kind of do a self check too and see where they're at on that, you know Because not not to say a startup has to be only 18 months old I mean a startup can be seven eight years old, you know And until they've got depending on what the R&D cycle is, you know and getting things out there But so much of like that first stage Is building the brand so you're not just building the product, but you're building the awareness around the product all that's very expensive Yeah, and it's difficult and you're going to have a lot of faith and hope that and and know Educated guests that this is going to be a success because you're going to be really spending a lot and not making a lot Yeah, but as you get into those more established and maybe more conservative um Industries, let's say banking for instance.

I mean, they really are only maybe it's business banking They're spending like two to three percent of their revenue on marketing, and you can include sales and marketing and advertising in that budget. And sometimes they're even less than that. Yeah, if they're relying on the business of 15 wealthy individuals.

Maybe they're shuttered down. They're good. Just make a sheet, you know, and that's not even something that a marketing person needs to do, you know. You can have some person that's maybe account exec makes their own marketing materials because that's all they really need. So there's a lot of ways to kind of slice that number up.

Is there, uh, you referred to that CMO survey and everything, were there, did they provide any other numbers about like, or like, around like, the age or the, um, The maturity of the company surveyed or the CMO surveyed? Yeah, and that's where that average comes in that seven to nine and I think they said actually they're projecting it to move up to That nine nine percent level and that probably collects more of that mid range So you're not the well established which is two to three percent maybe as low as that or five percent It's actually more closer than those in that established range to be in that four to five percent range If you're in the middles and you're trying to move into new markets or grow the company a little bit more aggressively Maybe take out a competitor or something like that.

Then you're going to be up in that 9, 10, 11 percentage Could be even higher though. How aggressive is management and leadership? Are they just like, okay for three years We're just going to go all in and spend all the money and really try to go go for it You know and really break into something new and bigger.

Um, so that's part of so it's like it's It's a complicated mix right because you've got you've got the size of the company You Um, as far as revenue, is headcount another thing? Does that play into it a little bit? I guess it would ultimately because it's, it comes to your percentage of revenue that you have to pay.

That's where that, that number drops way off. If you get thousands of people on your payroll, the percentage of revenue that you're spending on sales and marketing drops down because you're probably making a lot of revenue to pay for all that headcount. So the smaller the business, the larger that percentage tends to be too.

So if you're under 50 employees, maybe you could have that number way up there in the thirties and forties, even depending on what you're selling. If it's consumer, you know, I think consumer packaged goods and food, Those are way high. Those are always just consistent. So there's an exist, there's an example of like, you've got big, giant brands, P and G Procter and Gamble, and those kinds of companies that are, much, much bigger, but they're still fighting it out and competing and, and.

Spending 20 to 30 percent of their revenue budget revenue on marketing and then in getting the word out there TV commercials, you know, you've seen all that stuff for that, but they're in the that's the big boys club But they have that's the game they've chosen, you know, but then there's also those big large established industries that have been around for a long time and they're, you know, trying to change things up or grab a new market and they can be still spending seven to 9 percent of the revenue.

So, um, I'm, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of somebody who's about is arming themselves for a conversation with their boss about trying to establish a budget and giving, giving me the reins to manage that, to try and get results. Right. Like, so let's say I'm in a small company. We've got like, Let's say you've got 12 people, and we're making, you know, 10 million a year.

And, um, I go in there, like I go to the CMO survey and everything. And I bring in those numbers, these benchmarks, and I'm trying to poke holes at what the Boss might say, right. So I mean, let, a lot of places don't have CMOs. Like if you have a cmo, you've got a giant department of stuff, right? So they're surveying people that are like way up here, right?

Like I could see a boss saying, yeah, that's, those are CMOs. They're, they've got the, the, the, it's the companies represented there are have got to a point where they have. A team of people that's not relevant to us. Do you see anything in those numbers or an experience that tells you that like, yeah, that may, yes, the, the results of this may come from that, but it does play out in everything else we've seen.

Does that, You know what are my experience personally with dealing with small companies like you're talking about, it really depends on the personality and leadership and how much respect and Importance they put on marketing and branding. Yeah, that to me is the big x factor if they have no knowledge or interest or Maybe they're an engineer that just builds things and fixes things.

They're not going to have, they may not, I'm not saying every one of them, but you know, they may not have any understanding of it even because What's funny is when we get into some of these meetings with some of the leadership when we when we have these conversations Is you really find out that you're speaking two very different languages, even though it's all sounding like the same language and it's really interesting to try to You parse out from them and ask a lot of questions to try to get to know where they're at and what their level of, I guess, respect for the, for our industry, uh, where it's at.

Yeah. Uh, some of it they wear on their sleeve. You can tell right away like, ah, I don't care. I don't need that stuff. You know, but then there's other ones that are, you know, maybe more interested or more open. And I think that that's where it's a lot more challenging in smaller organizations because you've got Maybe less checks and balances on leadership.

And we find that, um, it's so much more based on personality and their level of understanding. It's funny, you mentioned like, the, like going into a meeting and saying the same thing over and over again. Like, I'm just kind of thinking of going out on a date with my wife and, which doesn't happen nearly enough.

But, in this fictional scenario, I show up and I've, I have an odd choice for a t shirt or a shirt I want to wear. So I'm not going, we're not going out to dinner with you wearing that shirt. Yeah, okay We're not going out to dinner with me wearing that shirt and we could I could say that and we could leave that and have Completely different understandings like am I going to dinner without a shirt at all?

Interesting. I don't know if I'd do that. You know, is she going to dinner by herself and you're going to another dinner And I'm leaving my shirt on and I'm doing whatever I want because you love the shirt. Yep. Yeah Or am I changing my shirt? You know, like there's three different outcomes from that shared language thing.

So it could happen a lot, like with those conversations too. It's kind of funny. It's a funny language thing. I think more than anything. But as you've said before, words confuse people. Yeah. That's just hard to confuse. Yeah. They're very confusing. Based on these benchmarks and everything that even though, even if you aren't a CMO, you know, that they hold up pretty well, you know, it's a good, it's a good guide.

It's a good starting point. Yeah. Somebody else's numbers aren't going to be yours, right? So really what it comes to is arming yourself with some financial knowledge, being able to steer some conversations around like, and have a real conversation about it. And I think if you come at it with the right angle with your boss, like it come from a place of being able to have some financial awareness, understand some of the kind of the company's financials.

Maybe if you don't have, you're not talking to the CFO about all the numbers, but you, you might have your finger on the pulse of, What you've spent already. Maybe that's your first framework. If you don't feel like it's enough, maybe you can pump it up. But just coming with some financial literacy, talking to, and having this real conversation with the, with your boss, that you could establish a budget for a year, And would ultimately free you up to do a better job as a marketer, right?

Because you could effectively realize, again, you can't do everything yourself, right? You're like, there's rare people who can do all the different things that a marketer needs to do well. If you're armed with budget, you can make decisions. And maybe you can find people. To help you in the right places, but having the budget up front really helps you unlock that, right?

Yeah, that was a really good summary of what we basically talked about here. I think it's about communication, getting those clear understandings, and getting a commitment. I think it's good to have a year commitment. Yeah. I like the sound of that because then that gives you plenty of room like we've talked about before.

It takes a lot of time to do things, especially if you're one person and you're, you know, only on it, And don't have a lot of resources, kind of lay that foundation, get the heartbeat going, and then layer on top of that other campaigns based on what those budget restraints or limits are. Yeah, sounds good.

And we have, we have a thing that we use all the time that we think would be really helpful for everybody too, right? So we put together this annual marketing budget spreadsheet that has a lot of information that, and maybe putting in the information that you, uh, that you know, How Going backwards, you can come to those conversations armed with that, right?

And say, Hey, here's what we've spent. And it totals up everything at the bottom. You can see what you've spent. You can even project to, to get, to help craft that plan out a full year, like we just talked about. Yeah. And even utilize that there's a calculator on that as well, which really helps. You can kind of pull from that CMO survey.

org. We'll kind of put us a little screenshot in there for you, but you can use that and then kind of approach your. Is it more aggressive? Is it more conservative? And kind of use that calculation, put in what that revenue number is maybe, or whatever your budget number is, and that should help you establish how much money you can spend throughout the year.

So look for that on the marketing team of one. net website, along with a lot of other fun. Freebies that were given away. And ultimately, if I think anyone in a position of power, a boss or something like that, if they, if somebody comes to them armed with this financial literacy and planning and looks at this stuff, you can't help, but want to give them more opportunities and give them an opportunity to run with it.

So I think so. And if we can help people with that, I think that'd be fantastic. That's our goal here. We're trying to help as many of these single marketers as possible. Yeah. So best of luck to all of you out there arming yourselves with math. It doesn't have to be scary Doesn't it was pretty scary at the beginning.

Oh gosh. I still don't like spreadsheets. The necessary evil they are wonderful. They really are. They really are but don't be afraid of the spreadsheet. It can be an ally Especially in this case you will use them all the time for all kinds of fun stuff. Thanks Eric. Appreciate it. Mike. Thank you Yeah Thanks everybody.

Thanks for tuning in. For more information and other episodes, subscribe to the Marketing Team of One Podcast on YouTube, apple, or Spotify podcast networks. You can also chat with us on the r/marketingteamofone subreddit or visit marketingteamofone.com to learn more.