Is focusing on the wrong details RUINING your marketing?

I guess the analogy is we have to move this podcast studio. What this podcast studio represents everything about our thing, but we have to move and we have to fit it all into your two seater.  That's asking your car to do too much. So think about it like if the logo is a container for your stuff and know that you don't need to fit everything into your logo.

You have a brand to do that.

Welcome to the Marketing Team of One podcast, where we have conversations about the issues one person marketing teams face when trying to meet their goals with limited time and budgets. Now here's your hosts, Eric and Mike. Mike, the word on the street is you hate design. That's basically, Oh, I hate design.

You hate design. Yeah. That's what I heard.  Prove me wrong.  It's hard to say. Cause if people ask me who, what I do, I'd say I'm a designer. Yeah. So that's a really, yeah. Um, but I can see how the word is on the street that that's the case. Yeah. I think a lot of this. Episode here will be me sorting out my feelings on it out in the open for everybody about the role of, you know, namely graphic design.

I'm not talking about like, you know, like functional design. I need to get on record and say that I don't hate design. I absolutely don't. I actually love it. That's the career I've had forever. I love it, but I'm sorting out my feelings about where, where it sits in my hierarchy of importance. It's complicated.

It's very complicated. Okay. It's a love, hate sometimes. I mean, everybody probably experiences that, you know, heart surgeons. I hate this. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe somebody didn't survive, you know, something like that. Yeah. There's the peaks and valleys. Yeah. So, so it's good. You're on the crying couch, the therapy couch.

Yeah. This is, we'll work through this. We've actually like,  I think it's fair to say we faked the crying in a few episodes. Well,  I don't want to, you know,  break down the fourth wall because I mean, I think my performances have probably been pretty award winning. Absolutely. I'm just saying I can really channel that  as a designer who struggles with design on a fairly daily basis.

Yeah. I cry. I don't know if I'll be crying, you know, like, you know, right. But it might, it might happen. Okay. Stay tuned. Yeah. Could happen at the end. So if you,  if you do that before it's over, your struggle with design is not so much that you hate design or anything like that. I was of course joking, but it's more about the levels of hierarchy or the levels of importance that people put on.

Design. I think my biggest struggle is this tension between like practicality and craft. Ah,  good. The practical side of my brain thinks about how the things that we put out into the world are received by most people who are there. And of course we're spending as creators hundreds of times longer creating the thing than the people who receive the thing.

And we notice a lot of things. That's our job. It's our job to notice those things. Right. And that a lot of those things are the craft and everything, but I think my, my challenge right now is  what's worth, where's the craft worth it and when is it not? And everybody's line for that is going to be completely different.

Well, and where that line falls depends on a lot of different factors. Of course, audience, of course, purpose and goal, but is like time spent on it as part of one of those calculating things that you would consider, like, I'm going to spend 40 hours on this E. Or this letter,  is that where we, I, I'm trying, I know that like good things can take time, right?

But are you spending  the time  in a way that is going to be ultimately noticed by abroad? Like, so it's like, it's a forest through the trees. Where, where do we want to spend those valuable resources? And sometimes I think that's why we get stuck on  social medias in general, because we're crafts people. We want to craft everything and make it just make it clean.

And it  takes time.  And the ROI on that effort, that hour you spent, which, you know, when you have a team of people, that is a cost, you know, that person costs you could be 100 an hour, you know, was that extra hour they spent on that post that photo that. Little piece that just got scrolled by, by your audience.

Was it worth it? That's where it, like, it's almost a question of efficiency and business operations at that point where it's like, really think of yourself as like a laser beam  that has. A set amount of power behind it. And you've got to think very intelligently on how you're going to execute that power on whatever you're doing.

Maybe kind of like, do you want to light something up or do you want to cut a hole? Right. Hmm. Nice. Yeah. I think the craft needs to be applied,  but  I also think that we need to be really. Hesitant of, um,  are we smoothing down the rough edges way too much? Like to the point, it's like that analogy. I know that Steve jobs, when he was  a young boy, his dad was a cabinet maker and he, and he enforced this idea with Steve jobs that even the backs of the drawers needed to be absolutely perfect.

Nobody saw it in the interest of craft.  There's, I guess, a philosophical reason for that, but in a commercial world,  there's no reason for that. Right. And so I, and maybe a lot of it, it just comes to marketing in general. Mm-hmm . Right? Like, is marketing a place for craft ah, whoa.  Boom. I, I don't know. I like to think, yes, we can spend hours and hours perfecting a photo.

That's going to be used for something super powerful and representative of that organization. But we don't need to do the same thing for a social post. I yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. All right. You don't want to apply craft to the wrong thing, right? Right. So yeah. And  do you think part of that though, is the physical versus, you know, the tangible versus the not tangible.

I was just going to mention that. I think, you know, you've got social is digital. It's low res. You're on a screen that's this big, you know, there's very little.  There's a lot of room for error. There's very little room for error when it's a printed piece that maybe is larger format that has a lot more technical requirements behind that photo to do the job that it needs to do there.

So yeah, I think that that's part of it, you know, it's so funny because I think.  A long time ago, they might've said that annual reports were like, ephemeral, they're not, you know, but like, it's funny that we're looking at it now and like, no, like, I think social, social posts and stuff are the epitome of ephemeral, right?

And.  That this thing that we've put a lot of time and effort and money into  crafting and crafting. Cause think of like, I think of like the copy side of things.  It's interesting because I know that good copy is really critical and yeah,  it takes time, takes time to do it and it takes time to become effective.

I argue like sometimes when we work on an annual report,  The copy on the inside is so heavily, it's worked on for months and refined and revisited and checked and all this stuff. Yet the title may not be. The title is just a single word, you know, thrive or, well, you know, just pick a word that fits the theme and that's usually all you need to do.

Marry it with a beautiful visual and bingo, you've got a great annual report or sometimes there is even no title. But then you think of social media and you're like, okay, the title's got to grab you immediately. It's super critical. So you're going to spend time on the title and not maybe on so much on the content of whatever that social post is.

Yeah.  And I think that's a lot of it. Like where  my, where I'm settling now is in the, is this idea that we should be applying our craft  towards The gut instant, the gut reaction of people who will receive it. You should be focusing on what's the overall impact right away. And if you start like, I think when you start nitpicking details or like you might be putting your focus in the wrong spot.

Well, and then some of it comes down to, I think, experience of the person doing it, because as you do this career. Your radar gets tuned finer and finer and finer year upon year. There are things that we all can pick out instantly. We can see something in a brand or a design or something like that, that immediately triggers us because we've been tuned to it for.

So long, and we know where the guardrails are, where the danger zones are with color contrast or all the formalities of design. Um, so we're, we're well aware of that. I think if you're younger, it's a, maybe  a more difficult thing. To really have that radar up at that point. That's where maybe you need to have another person taking a look at things and feeling better.

I mean, I still love to have people take a look at what I do because my radar is tuned into this stuff and it's still funny how my radar may miss something. So by no means do I feel like I'm perfect at all, but I think that knowing where your radar is tuned. Is a really critical part to that because then that'll allow you to efficiently judge or efficiently go ask for feedback  so that you don't have to,  you know, post that one thing that  burns down the company accidentally  to paraphrase one of the great philosophers.

I think really the best way to sum that up is to check yourself before you wreck yourself.  It's so funny, like the internal, like. Back and forth. I'm like, he's going to quote a philosopher. No, it's going to be somebody like Bill and Ted or something like that. And then I'm like, no, it's gonna be a philosopher again.

And then  I love it. Full stay focused on. Yeah. To see the emotional range that your face goes. Yeah. During that. Yeah. Sometimes when you come into the stuff new that you can dive really far into some of these details and try and try and Put your thumb on the scale for some things that, that I, it sometimes as the, as the creator or something, can be really frustrating because it, that they,  they don't seem to have the effect of making the overall product better.

Mm-hmm . Yeah. That it's really like muddying the waters or just introducing a lot more.  Like confusion, sand,  sand in the ball bearings, or, you know, like the art of creating is about getting deep, deep, deep into something and then pulling way, way back. And I'm going deep, deep, deep and pulling way, way back.

It's like, that's per for me, a lot of how I like to create. And I think a lot of people on our team do and pulling back part of that process is to get other people and other voices involved. And I think that's something that maybe we should recommend is if you don't have kind of a,  a safe group of people that you can kind of bounce stuff off of and, and really respect their opinions and understand what they see.

And now, and I don't even mean like. Designers or other copywriters or other marketers like  really, you know, pull from other people. There's a wide variety of opinions that really matter. And in fact, ignorance is a superpower sometimes when it comes to this stuff. So pull from people that represent your audience who may not know anything about what you're doing.

Sometimes it's nice and you know, you kind of have to have. That curated group of people or person that can bring that kind of feedback to you in a healthy way, but getting that feedback. I know for me, I love working with a team. I don't ever feel like any of the design work that I create or a lot of the stuff that I create is mine, like by no means, like I can push things over a finish line, but it's a group effort of.

All these other voices and people and influences  help create really good design. And it goes quicker too. That's the thing too, that I love about it is like I could be milling on something and boom, boom, boom, trying, trying, trying hours and hours and hours, and then pull back and bring in another group.

And we're like, Oh yeah, that's putting bang boom. And. Five minutes later, it's like, Oh,  that's what was locked in my head that I could not get out. But thank you for that feedback. And again, that feedback can come from anybody. I'll show stuff to my wife. I show stuff to everybody that they're non designers.

I think that's super valuable too. Like, because  for most of us, the work we're doing is not intended for designers.  Exactly. Like, so, um, I think the user user experience peeps out there, they've, they've got it really right. And like, so my, my argument for craft and my argument for creating for the gut reaction, the people you're sending to, I think they've really got it right.

Like, and they've, they're, they're, That you can apply the craft, but they're also applying user testing. They're getting things right in front of people all the time. Get that feedback. You know, we've done sessions with where we just had five people review stuff that we did. Yeah. And after the third person, you're like, Oh yeah, that's the perception that's out there on this thing.

I like your analogy of like going deeper and then backing back out. But like, I think we need to have a healthy understanding of the back out is where we're, where the audience is not down in here. Exactly. Right. And so that the craft can happen here, but let's not lose sight of this up here. Yeah, yeah. I think that that's the most important.

Piece of it, obviously we all love to get in there and, you know, roll up our sleeves and like, all right, I'm going to make this perfect, you know? Yeah. Okay. It's perfect for you. And sometimes you, you know, the hard part is a  lot of times it's not perfect for everybody else. So you may love it, but we're in a commercial professional service.

Like we got to answer to an audience and a customer and other people that,  you know, they're the ones that matter. That's the difference between like being an artist. In a sense and being a professional service like we are with a brand. There's a number of different things when we're setting up a new brand that we're trying to focus on.

Right. Like, so we're going to start out upfront. We want to know what's the core values of the company that we're working on. What's their, what's their mission. What, um,  I mean, what do we do? We want to make sure that there's no tell what, what they actually do. Right. We want to communicate.  We do a lot of work to.

Talk about how they want to be portrayed in the marketplace and how can they be differentiated from competitors and in the, in the marketplace. So that's all this like foundational strategy side of things. Right. And then we will get rolling and there's other pillars of the brand, right? We've got the messaging, how, what are the words that are used to describe that brand?

In some cases, if you're creating a new brand, you're coming up with the name of the brand. Then you're coming up with logo. Um, maybe it's the logo mark, then there's the typefaces that support it and everything. And when we get too mired in the depths and especially, um, I would say we do this with clients a lot.

And when the clients get to, can't see the  forest for the trees,  Um, that's when  I think we need to go start  dragging ourselves up, dragging them up and I'm thinking for, you know, like your bosses, if they get too mired in that, like trying to say, here's the context in which this exists, like right now, I know we're not working on anything else.

We're only working on, um, this one  messaging thing, but really no one's just going to read that and they're not going to spend it. Longer than it takes to read it. That's the thing. Sit with it. Yeah. You're building a, like a, you're building a whole culture in a sense, right? With all these things. And yes, you have to are important.

I don't want to diminish the importance of it, but I think we have to find the balance and I'm struggling with the balance. So when I talk, when people, when the, when the word on the street gets out there that I hate design, it's not that I hate design. I'm struggling with the balance of design in the context of all the other.

Things that are a successful break. It's a tough struggle because I know that when we work with clients on branding stuff specifically, they really want to get in there with you too, because they know the weight of what you're working on, you know, or it's a break from the, and it's fun. It's fun. I think it's fun.

Like, Hey, this is an opportunity to I'm like, I'm not a creative, but Hey, here's my chance to. So that's what we have to kind of regulate with them and set up a lot of boundaries around when that, and how that can happen, because it can get addictive and it can get, you know, they get into the weeds immediately because they're also untrained in design.

So they,  they don't. Realize as much the gut, the gut. And this is how I start off every branding presentation round one. We really limit what we're showing because we do a lot of pre work. Like you just said, we will go through all those different things so that by the time we start developing visuals, we're not like scattershot here's 25 ideas.

We hope one of these lands, we are very. Strategic and how we're doing this already. And there should, there is no surprises on it. But the one thing I do have to tell every client when we do this is pay very close attention to the first one to two seconds that you see this and experience this. You're seeing it for the first time.

It's like, you know, seeing a new planet for the, it's, it's that big. I would put that kind of weight on it. So you would, you know, you need to pay attention to what is your gut because that's where your audience is going to live. Your audience isn't going to sit there and look at your logo for hours on end and say, just if you could make that one, like, no, like one tick, Oh, they don't care.

They just look at it for, it's a gestalt moment, right? That the firm, that phrase, you know, it's an instantaneous reaction. It's the gut. That's really what you need to pay the most attention to. If something triggers you immediately, like, Oh my gosh, that color is terrible. Okay, good. Then we'll change it.

That makes sense. But if you're working on it and looking at it and after two hours, you're like, now that color is kind of just, I don't know that that's as important of information as it was those first one to two seconds you saw that color for the first time. And this is, I've been thinking a lot about this lately because I think that if it is your brand and your work, you know, you're, you have to live it.

You might see it plastered on your wall as you walk into the office every day. Right? So you, you have to be comfortable with. Well, it gets to also like things that have a big personality, brand words, websites, visuals, video, all that stuff that has a big personality tends to wear on you. And so that's another strategic decision you need to make.

And that's why you see a lot of logos tend to move into this very vanilla plane, just. Typeset the font in the name of Facebook or whatever, because there's no, but no feelings get hurt.  Nobody's irritated by that over staring at it. Like you said, the example you used, I'm looking at the Facebook logo my whole life.

Okay, well,  it's not going to make you angry, but it's not also going to make you feel anything either. It's going to be like, okay, good. That didn't hurt my feelings. We can move on with my scroll or whatever. I'm curious.  I'm dead inside. I just want to practice this. Right. We know that. Yes. Everybody. Yeah.

But  do you,  have you ever seen a logo and you felt like, and you're a designer,  have you ever seen a logo?  And felt something just the ones I've designed. Oh, well, yeah, I feel amazing. Yeah, it's not just the the logo represents a feeling in my head. And if it's a positive thing, then yeah,  yeah. Then I have this like, oh, I love that thing.

Maybe I don't love it on a like structural basis. But I love it  on a  brand visceral feeling experience level because they're all supported. And this is to speaks to a good brand, right? Yep.  Cause you, cause you, you also, you're, you're being brought into what that brand is representing. Yeah. Right. And so that the logo is part of that and the ones you're going to get bought into are going to be more.

More holistic, I would say, like, if we want to talk like design and I'm talking like all different types of design,  really the only ones that probably have that simple type of reaction. I think you're talking about  would be things like architecture. That's why some elevated architecture to, you know, higher level.

They're a combination of art and Yeah. Yeah. Commercial and science engineering and everything, you know, you, when you walk into a space, it doesn't matter what the logo is on the wall. If it's an amazing,  you know, transit center or airport or some big public space, you're just like,  there's nothing you can't help.

But yeah, you just have this reaction to it. I would say movies are another way movies represent brand in a way. I mean, you know, there's tons of movies that have a. Brand essence to them. And that's all movies nowadays. Yeah. But video has that effect too, because it's a combination of so many different things and it's kind of scientifically engineered to draw up emotion.

That's the thing that makes it. Nobody wants to sit through a movie that is like,  all right, is this over yet? Cause I put in my time, you know, are they paying me to watch this? Cause I'm really out of here. You know, that's not why they make movies, you know? So those are the two things to me that I would say  I have that.

Visceral effect on me. I'm visually sensitive and have a radar that's tuned way too high for most mortals, so yes, there are logos that I see but again, I would Attribute a lot of my emotional reaction to the structure or the look or the color of that brand  Some of that is bris Is the brand itself, the language of the brand, the essence, the feeling, you know?

But I think gut reaction, right? You, um, we've talked in the past about how you refuse to go to a restaurant because the logo is so bad. And I was just at a design conference last week  talking to another designer. They live in my town. Yeah. Same reaction, same actions. They will not go eat at that restaurant.

So you're building a coalition. Yes. All right. I have another. But  I think I'm going to stand on your, I'm going to,  I'm still Swiss on the, I'm very Swiss on this argument, the low, the, okay. So yeah, like I talked about what I react to, did you want to talk, but I want, I want to say like as a, as a neutral party here in the, in the wars of  every, of  bad logos and stuff like that.

Yes. I'm going to fight for the craft side of things, because I think like the,  you're right that that first impression. The gut reaction you got from that is I'm not going there. That's super important. And there are, there are going to be non designers that, that,  that influences that there might be non designers that don't want to go to that restaurant.

I bet you there are. I sure hope so.  They, it, it says a certain thing about that brand because of what they've done. It's weird because I look at that brand again and it's like, I don't even react to like the formalities of it instantly. Like I go back to my reaction to it when I first saw it. I was just like, nope.

Oh,  like it was literally be less than a second.  And then you go back and you look at it again. If you can't like, it's like looking at the sun, you know, it burns my eyes. I kind of have to look through like a plate of like welder's glass and look at it just to protect my own mental health. The mediocre and the excellent can be seen as very.

Close to one another in the eyes of people that are out there agreed that um, the bad truly truly stand out Yes, the bad like but there's a very mushy middle that might get lumped into  into the excellent  I'm talking from a visual perspective for the most part. I would agree. I agree because that does, but that doesn't make me feel great about, but it's, it goes back to that idea of like good enough beats best every, and that's like a business theory, right?

Like it's like minimum viable product.  You know, if it's cheaper and quicker and easier, Unfortunately, sometimes that beats out the greatest refined thing. Now, I would argue that a brand personality by refining their logo to a point that is elevated above and beyond shows how much they care about their customer and their audience.

And so that maybe is the differentiator between, but if you're comparing, you know,  garage door opener companies, one to the next, you're like, eh,  sure. That one's fine. Like, I'm not going to be like, Oh my God, look at the logo on the, does it do its job? It's very utilitarian example. I know, but you know what I'm saying?

It's like, make a list of what the most important things they think are for that specific channel or how they're out, what their outreach is, how are you going to use your limited resources? We all have limited resources to the best of your ability and make those decisions strategically so that you are spending a lot of time on the things that make the most.

Have the biggest impact and sometimes it's not the logo. Sometimes it's not the color. Sometimes it's the copy. We talk about things as like disposable design and long term or legacy design. Those are kind of the two ways we look at things. I would say ads and social media are disposable. Oh, yeah.  Brand is legacy.

So you're going to want to spend a lot of time on that, and that's where you can get sucked into that hole. Yeah. What are some examples of brands that you, that everyone talks, every, everyone you talk to when you say, what brand do you, do you admire? Which one do you, um. Oh, of course. Apple. Apple, Nike, you know, like how, how often have they changed?

It's our job as experts probably to remind people of that, that like a successful brand is something that you're not, um, that exists  below.  Everything. Well, and, but then the, like some of the identity things are you want to get right because it should last  a long, long, long time. And sometimes, um,  getting in deep and say, trying to throw the kitchen sink at things.

So you're applying it at the wrong place. That's, that was what I was going to get into is like with so many  organizations want to put every story element of their whole background into a logo because they can't forget. And there's a lot of different reasons. I get that, you know, you kind of get, you know, we're all about these four different factors, so they need to be in the logo.

Well, you just illustrated a great point as like, are all those elements inside of. Like, is there an iPhone on the Apple logo? That's the most important product they make, you know, it's like, no, it's not part of it, you know, but why are they leaving that out? You know, like that, that's an extreme example, but yeah, the, the temptation is to throw kitchen sink.

And some of it's political, you know, well, this person's on the board. So we need to show this element because that needs to represent their interests somehow. And that just waters it down and doesn't make it really fit. I guess the analogy is  we have to move this podcast studio, right? Um, what I'm just, here's the, here's the thing, but we have to move,  um, and we have to fit it all into your two seater.

That's asking your car to do too much.  Good point. Okay. Right. Like, so think about it. Like if the logo is a container for your stuff and know that.  No, you've it, you can't, you don't need to fit everything into your logo. You have a brand to do that.  Your brand is there's all the other different points and yes, they should all be working in harmony, but let's, let's not kitchen sink it.

I think that's a universal temptation. I mean, we are always wanting to do that. I mean, I'm still tempted by that. When I do some creative work, is it, you know, I can't make those decisions. I have to, and that's, what's helpful about bringing in this kind of council of experts or non experts  to say, like, is that really part of, like, why is that in there?

Like that little thing like that? I don't even know why that's it. Why is that in there? You know, then take it out. You don't need that stuff in there. Logo does not sit above the brand. It is one piece of the brand. Why would we isolate that one thing?  Like love it.  The, uh,  It should be as a whole, because in, in show that there's the different pieces that, that taken together, and maybe it takes some pressure off your two seater car  from holding everything, right?

It's like, there's the name, cause that needs to exist. Just typeset and copy name. Then there's the logo, the symbol of it. Then there's the brand and all the elements that are around it. But the identity, the identity of the brand, the identity, which includes all those elements, you know, how it's utilized on your business card, let's just say for an example, but there's all the different application, how website, blah, blah, blah, all, you know, where are we going to see the brand shirts, you know, everything.

But the biggest portion of that is the application of it all. Yeah. It's where is that put out there? Where is that?  That's the most important piece of it because you can have a brand that nobody sees, but if you've got a name that's powerful or, you know, you can kind of play with all of those different aspects of it, but the application of it is the most important piece of that whole puzzle.

I'm getting more specific examples, right? That we see repeated over and over again, right? Like California based. Um, um, and we, we do a lot of work with associations and, um, other regional players, right? That might represent the interests of people statewide. Right. And so when we inevitably in almost any logo or branding conversation, um,  well, we need to fit the downline of the state of California in this, it's a beautiful profile to try to  Yes.

It's identifiable. Yeah. Is it unique? No, no, not so ever as a designer. It's really hard to work with man. It's not balanced. No. I mean,  designers in Idaho have this problem.  That's a weird looking shape.  Yeah. But like, sorry, all of our idle listeners and why, why we're trying to put too much on the logo. I think that, um, we have to communicate that we do business in California.

We have to communicate that we're looking out for the interests of. Um, our trade group, they represent, um, truckers, uh, who, who move agriculture products throughout the state. Right. So, okay. So just in that example, right there, a common place to go with that is we need to have the state of California. We need to show a truck, a big rig, and they're probably an 18 wheeler.

Um, and, but, oh, but, but they might be, have electronic products. We need to show that we have some organic pieces and everything.  Like.  That's asking a lot for a mark that should show up this big on most. That's what we, and that's when we show brand, we're like, here's a one color reversed out of a pen that's your logo should still have some sort of identifiable.

I think one of the most visible things that people have out there is a website, right? Right. What's the next thing that people see when they're they,  everybody takes a kind of Z pattern looking through websites, right? They look up here and usually. There's that hero section, right? Like, okay. If you want to convey a big rig truck driving through California with some agriculture products in it, you could do that in the photo.

The photos are a big piece of the brand. And it's not carrying nearly as much weight. So you have all these other opportunities to express your brand. It doesn't have to all be in the logo. Good. But if we show it in the context in which it's, it's shown everywhere else, I think that that helps take the pressure off of it.

Yeah. It maybe helps avoid the  over processing or analyzing, move this thing here. The logo can't live without this brand concept behind it and everybody I think She is working towards that on some level, but that's the hard thing is like, there's a lot of work that goes into supporting a brand and that application piece of it that never goes away.

That's something that your whole organization or your communications and marketing team is,  you know, and you as one are focused on is that application and getting that  word out there for everything.  So you don't hate design. I don't hate design.  I love that. Oh, that's good. Whew. I want  everyone to know that.

Okay.  I just think the bit, let's, I think we need to just keep in mind the gut, like people's gut reaction and apply the craft towards  that gut reaction.  And if it, if it's not going to go towards that gut reaction that we really should be scrutinizing what it's where, where it goes. And to refine the gut, the gut necessarily isn't the designer's gut.

The gut begins with the designer gut, but that gut is shared with the audience, the general audience and their. Their gut reaction. Yeah. Sort of shared guts.  We've got guts all over the place here. Jeez, this is getting messy. Very messy.  Oh, yeah.  You're not going to pull out a get your gut thing on me. You know, I, you always get my goat by saying  stuff gets my go.

Yeah. I'm not going to, not today. At least you're not going to get my gut. No. As an industry, as  people dealing with marketing,  there's definitely a place for craft, but let's make sure that it's applied. Okay. Do you feel better, Mike? Do you feel like you can now go about your day and  have a much more healthier  perspective?

Yep. Okay. But not that you didn't before. I'm just saying like, no, I think this is helpful. And as long as I don't get drugged too deep. Yeah. Yes. We're going to be in good shape. Okay. So you're, you're a floater on top kind of a guy keep an eye on the top. Okay. Like  I'm a scuba diver with limited oxygen in my tank  snorkeler, snorkeler, even better.

Okay. I'm snorkeling. Good. Yeah. I want to go deep. Right. But I know I need to get out. I can be a scuba diver at times. I know. Yeah. But really we need to listen to the person in the floatie. Sitting up in the ring with a pina colada. Think of the broad, think of the, think of how people will take it. And yeah, I think another good takeaway is get it in front of people, even get it in front of the non, the people who aren't as close to it as often as possible.

And don't ask for deep feedback, ask for their gut reaction on things. Okay. That's good. I think that, I think that would help a lot of people.  Sounds like a good place to end the podcast, Mike. Thanks for your insights. I'm glad you're going to be settled and, uh, psychically neutral. Thanks for giving me a new band name.

That would be a good band name. Psychically neutral. Yeah. I don't know what kind of band. Yeah.  I thought of another one that I thought was a funny, good, funny band name, but then I thought maybe it's more of like a good album name. Cause that's always the. Problem. You go back to one's which, yeah. Would I build a brand around psychically neutral?

No. Would I build a campaign around it?  Yes.  So it's more of an album. It's an album name. Yeah. Yeah. My album name was,  or maybe it's a band name. Cause you could kind of build a camp and you can build a lifestyle around this  loose stools.

They're When you say that, the genre I think of is kind of like  gore esque.  Very theatrical. Oh, yeah. Very gross. Oh, absolutely. Very tongue in cheek. But  the visual is just a stool. Maybe one leg is shorter than the other. See, and then the album is like a Andy Warhol, like silk train print of that, just the stool  and then the stage design,  just two or three, however many people are in our band, I would imagine so many people would probably want to join, right?

You probably have to make room for eight or nine people up on stage, but the curtain rises and it's just eight stools.  Yeah, except they kind of, you know, when people sit on them, they kind of like, you know, like those tables at restaurants where you're like, can somebody get a napkin? Yeah, I imagine this band is made up of three  people  who were alive and well and Thoroughly enjoyed the original like punk scene with the Ramones In the day, not let go.

Right. Good. In this day to this day. So they're seventies.  They're getting up there. Yeah. They've got a good sense of humor about their place in it all. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of punk. They perform, but they have to sit on stools because they're not quite that healthy. Yeah. Yes. Anymore. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. See that this is the power of brand.

We've built an entire  universe.  Yeah. Yeah. We've built the world. Maybe we can do a music video with the video AI tools.  Well Mike, sounds like you're in a good place. Sounds like it's a good place on the podcast for today. Appreciate all your insights. Thanks again. Thank you. I'm  yeah, I'm a change man. It's all because of.

The crying couch and you. Thank you.  Thanks.  Thanks for tuning in. For more information and other episodes, subscribe to the marketing team of one podcast on YouTube, apple, or Spotify podcast networks. You can also chat with us on the r slash marketing team of one subreddit or visit marketing team of one.com to learn more.

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